Jasmine: Thanks so much, Shelleen, for being here. I’m really excited today to have Shelleen Greene, who is Associate Professor of Cinema and Media Studies here at the Film Department.

I thought I would talk with you today, Shelleen, about some of your approaches to syllabi development, and the ways that you’ve been sort of rethinking film history, through classes like your European film history course, which is one of these large undergraduate lecture courses.

So, could you tell me a little bit about how you approached that class?

Shelleen: I would say that, you know, in my primary area of research, I study, I think, a very traditional world cinema, Italian cinema, but I have always approached the Italian cinema through the lens of the African diaspora, and looking at questions of representation and also the ways in which questions such as colonialism, post-World War II immigration have impacted, sort of the cultural representation coming out of, I think, what has often been seen as maybe, homogeneously a sort of one racial identity.

And sort of thinking about the ways in which cinema can actually tell us a great deal about those various histories, and the ways in which a particular country represents itself. I thought that when I began teaching one of our courses at the undergraduate level, the European film history course, that I would bring this kind of approach to looking at, perhaps, the history of what we call European cinema. What is that? 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: And so I always begin the course by sort of asking my students, “What do you think of when you think of European cinema?” And a lot of them will come with, you know, I think, the French cinema, French New Wave, for instance, or German Expressionism. Maybe they might look at the Italian Neorealism.

These major sort of film movements that we know about, have heard about, are sort of embedded in, I think, our cinema consciousness. I begin there and say that this is very interesting in terms of thinking about what we think of in terms of European cinema, but let’s broaden our understanding since this is a history course, and really look at the beginnings of the cinema in the late 19th century and see how it was utilized by many of these major European countries.

I think often when we think of European cinema, we think of it in terms of aesthetics, but there’s also a sort of a politics of it as well that I try to help students understand. During the late 19th century into the early 20th century, we’re still talking about, a period of Western imperialism.

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: Where now the cinema is coming into play as a tool for documenting the global territories, colonial territories. It’s also a tool that was used to perpetuate empire. And so to help students understand that the cinema is not neutral, that it is embedded in certain ideologies and helps to circulate, and produce, a sort of approach of looking at Europe as opposed to the non-European or the West as opposed to the non-West, and how the cinema helped to structure those kinds of relations.

And also to think about how the cinema can undo those relations as well. 

Jasmine: Mm-hmm. 

Shelleen: And so I do begin by thinking about how the cinema as a medium was embedded in these particular histories. It was during this time where we see the race for Africa in the late 19th century. And also we see the early filmmakers such as the Lumière brothers who sent their cinematographers out into the world to document parts of the non-West, and bring it back to Western audiences, Western European audiences.

Jasmine: Mm-hmm

Shelleen: And that it was very much a part of the early cinema, this kind of documentation. So we kind of begin there, right? And look at that also in the context of World War I, and to understand that these industries were being developed in the midst of war, and that the cinema was a great part of sort of establishing ideas of nationhood, of national identity, and that we very much still sort of think of the cinema as tied to a particular national entity.

So, I think it’s important for us to sort of think through what we mean by French cinema, and understand that it’s sort of complex, and what do we mean by “French?” Is it language? Is it the birth country of the director? Is it where the majority of the film is shot, the cast, the crew? So thinking about “what do we mean?” when we sort of get into these questions of what is a “European cinema” is very important.

And I think that is a question of EDI. Because I don’t want them to sort of go on the assumptions of what European cinema is. They come in with that, and then they want to see certain things, and so I think a lot of the work is to really challenge them–

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: – and to think about these categories, very differently, right? And to complicate them in ways that perhaps they haven’t been challenged to before.

Jasmine: I really like the way that you’re describing cinema as this kind of place within this really complex network of relations that are tied up to colonial histories, military histories from the advent of the medium.

I think when we were talking earlier, you had mentioned, you know, the way that film had been used as a kind of travelogue in early cinema. So, it’s very much tied into sort of colonial era image production, and then you sort of trace that history from there and get students to think more expansively about what cinema is and can do.

I was just reading this decolonial feminism special issue that Feminist Media Histories had put out, and in the introduction there, they talked a lot about moving away from the question of what cinema is, and [toward] thinking about what it does. 

Shelleen: Mm-hmm. 

Jasmine: I think it seems like the way that you’re approaching this European film history class. That’s what you’re also inviting students to sort of think about in relation to film. So, maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the films that you teach in that class. I know you’d mentioned classic works like Agnès Varda’s Cleo from 5 to 7, but sort of thinking about it from a kind of different lens. And then I know more recently you’ve taught very contemporary sort of films like Beats Per Minute.

Shelleen: Teaching something like the French New Wave, which is, you know, a film movement that is characterized by a new kind of experimentalism by a youth generation that is coming of age after World War II in France. I begin to sort of try to incorporate some aspects of French history during that time, not only this huge generational shift, and also a group of directors that were raised as cinephiles growing up with the [Paris] Cinémathèque and coming out of that kind of tradition of watching and viewing, such as, you know, Jean-Luc Godard or François Truffaut.

But also to mention a very important director such as Agnès Varda, who is coming to this, I think, with a definite sensibility as a woman author participating in what was, mostly, a kind of male-dominated movement. And really being one of the foundational directors. A very important work, I think her signature work often, is called Cleo from 5 to 7 from 1962.

And again, when I sort of introduce this film, it’s not only sort of the ways in which she shows this remarkable transformation in her protagonist, but also, to keep in mind that the film is also sort of registering, in a certain way, the impact of the [French] conflict with Algeria. Now, of course, France had occupied and controlled Algeria since the early 19th century, and it was at this time that they were involved in one of the most significant post,-World War II wars of decolonization, wars of independence, the Algerian War of Independence.

And you’ll see the ways in which Cleo from 5 to 7 is very much of its time. I mean, it’s characteristically a kind of French New Wave film in terms of its experimentation, but it’s also at certain moments registering the war.

Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

Shelleen: And you can hear it, as she walks through the streets, begins picking up sounds, and you can actually see the ways in which the protests, for instance, that are happening in the street, are beginning to influence Cleo as she comes to a new kind of consciousness of self. Again, this isn’t anything that is direct. 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: You know, it doesn’t come off as [an] overtly political film in that sense. It’s not a protest film, but it registers this as being part of French society at this time. It’s not something that is separated, right? That the war in Algeria has come to the center. And so, I think Cleo from 5 to 7 is kind of interesting because it also anticipates what will happen in France within the next decades, which is a large influx of immigrants who will begin to occupy the center.

And we have to see this new shift  in French society as they begin to come to terms with a colonial legacy, but also a new multiracial, multicultural society. And what I later tell my students is that we have another movement in France called the banlieue film, and the banlieue are usually these parts of the large metropolitan cities that are on the outskirts, but they’re mainly occupied by migrants who have traveled to the French center in order to work, to live, and then of course the second, third generations, right?

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: So, we have this whole separate cinema, the banlieue cinema, that really, you know, comes to its fore in the 1990s, but you can see it already anticipated in films such as Cleo from 5 to 7. I think I also like to show Cleo from 5 to 7 with Ousmane Sembène’s film Black Girl [1966], which is about a young woman who is from Senegal, and she travels for au pair work to France.

And, although this is a signature moment in African cinema, I also like to show it because it is about this new relation, right? It is about the colonial legacy and freeing oneself from that legacy. And understanding that in this post-World War II period, we have this ongoing relation. I think that Black Girl captures that dynamic in an incredibly beautiful manner so I often pair those, even though it’s technically African cinema. I say, well, actually, it is speaking to the relation of the post-War era, speaking towards decolonization, speaking about this new relation between the West and the non-West.

A film that I often show is The Battle of Algiers [1966], which is actually [a] French-Algerian co-production. It was directed by an Italian director, Gillo Pontecorvo, and this is also an interesting film. I think, as I try to read it in relation to the work of scholar Alan O’Leary, that the final coda of that film is set on the outskirts of the Casbah. And those outskirts actually are, again, registering what the future to come [will look like].

As the Casbah became overpopulated, they began building these new apartment complexes outside on the margins. It anticipates the banlieue as well. So, I do appreciate when scholars are beginning to come back to these films and read them differently, informed by histories of immigration, looking at this expanse removed now over 50 years of the post-colonial era, and beginning to reread the films. And I like to bring these new readings to students to help them think quite differently about the world we live in now, and how many of these films can be read as quite anticipatory.

Jasmine: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s exactly the word I was going to use.

Shelleen: Yeah.

Jasmine: You know, you’re bringing a kind of anticipatory lens to those films, I think, which is an invitation to students to do the same with the kind of work that they’re encountering in their own lives.

Shelleen: Right. Right.

Jasmine: So how do students respond to this approach to the class?

Shelleen: I think they appreciate, kind of historical dimensions that I try to bring to the class. I think film history is an interesting kind of work because we’re trying to bring this sort of historical framework, but we’re also very attentive to film aesthetics.

Jasmine: Yeah.

Shelleen: And we have to teach questions of spectatorship, perception, form, in terms of our analysis. So, it’s sort of thinking about, well, how does history fit into our discussion of aesthetics? And I want them to understand that when we talk about form, we don’t have to separate it from a type of sociopolitical context, and that history is very much embedded in our analysis. I’m also very attentive to helping them think through form. 

Jasmine: Mm-hmm. 

Shelleen: I try to maybe sort of think about something that is a very political cinema, such as Battle of Algiers. And I might pair it with something like Ivan’s Childhood [1962], which is [Andrei] Tarkovsky’s first film, which was done in the midst of this kind of opening within the Soviet Union, where he had a little bit of freedom. And Ivan’s Childhood is interesting; it’s a war film. It’s set during World War II, and it’s about a young child who is facing the devastation of war, as an adult, trying to be an adult, but he’s still just a child. I found that students are very taken by the storytelling, right? 

Jasmine: Yeah. 

Shelleen: The beauty of the storytelling, and how the cinema can also create empathy, can give us a new dimension of looking at the war. What does it mean to look at war from the vantage point of a child? So, I’m trying to constantly help them understand how directors have picked up these tools to tell different kinds of stories. It could be using a kind of realism, right? In terms of reenactment that we see in the Battle of Algiers. Or it could be this sort of dreamlike world that is experienced by Ivan as it comes into contact with the harsh realities that he has to experience. 

So, we see someone like Tarkovsky mining this kind of dreamlike experience in order to process these horrors. But then we have something that is very political, or we have something like, Cleo from 5 to 7 that is approaching it through self-awakening of this protagonist. So, there are different ways of approaching it, and I want the students to really capture the richness of the medium in terms of its storytelling capacities.

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: I think students are very taken by that as well, sort of like, “Oh, there are these different ways in which I can use the cinema to tell this particular history, this particular viewpoint.” And I hope that empowers them to understand that there are more stories to tell. 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: And that there are different ways of approaching the medium in order to convey these stories. For me, I think the most important thing is also to show them stories that are trying to convey empathy, to complicate and enrich our understanding, and to force us to think quite deeply and critically about history and the use, the very careful use, of this medium. Because it can be used, for instance, for propaganda, as we see in Nazi Germany. 

Jasmine: Mm-hmm. 

Shelleen: Or it can be used to convey this kind of empathy, as we see in Italian neorealism with Bicycle Thieves [1948], for instance, showing the horrors and the struggles of those coming to terms with the post-war period. So, it’s a medium that can be used in multiple ways, and I want students to be really conscious of how the medium can be used towards, you know, incredible ends in terms of humanizing others or thinking quite deeply about our experience within the world and globally. Or, it can be used to very different, perhaps even tragic, ends. And so I think it’s always trying to be very careful–

Jasmine: Mm-hmm

Shelleen: – in terms of, thinking about the film medium as a tool that has been used throughout the 20th century. And I think when you’re sort of coming to maybe, a course such as European Film History, I think it’s very important to emphasize that, you know, it’s a very complex medium.

[Laughs]

Jasmine: Yeah.

Shelleen: And that it has to be explored, I think, with some care and critical perspective.

Jasmine: That sounds like a really powerful and necessary way to approach these kinds of histories of the medium, of its relationship to larger social, cultural formations. And I really liked how you sort of framed it, in terms of its capacities to promote empathy, to humanize, but then on the other hand, to dehumanize. 

Shelleen: Mm-hmm. 

Jasmine: And so, I think those are the kinds of lessons that are really important right now.

Shelleen: I don’t leave them in, you know, 1962. 

[Both laugh]

Jasmine Sure. 

Shelleen: Some of the films, you know, I want them to really see that history is now. We’re in it, you know, that you’re a part of it. 

Jasmine: Mm-hmm. 

Shelleen: And so, I show contemporary films. There might be some that are historically inclined, like I mentioned, a film such as 120 Beats Per Minute. It was also called [BPM].

And this is a French film from 2017. Might be dated by now [laughs], but I think it’s pretty recent. And it’s by director Robert Cantillo. And it’s set during the 1980s [which] again, for many of our undergraduates, seems like a very long time ago. 

Jasmine: Sure. 

Shelleen: But you know, it is set during the time of the epidemic of HIV AIDS, and I think it’s important to show them a movement such as ACT UP and to show what that kind of direct action looked like.

And it is a very, I think, interesting perspective on that moment, from the early 1990s, and thinking about that kind of direct activism that was necessary because HIV AIDS was not being studied. It was not being given that consideration, particularly for LGBTQ communities that were impacted. 

I want them to see that kind of activism, how direct it was. It was in the streets, [it was] at the events, at the corporations. And to think about how that is relevant today, perhaps in other movements that we see here for Black Lives Matter or Me Too movement, or thinking about environmental activism. I want them to understand that they come out of this larger history, right? 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: In terms of thinking really critically about “how do we engage?” And, what I like about this film is that a lot of it is devoted to these meetings, right? And seeing, well, how do we, like as a group, come to consensus about what to do and how to move forward?

And so, I think the film is very good at showing the nitty-gritty of how hard it is, you know, to be part of collective activism. It’s like, we’ve gotta sit here for hours to figure out who gets to speak, and whose idea are we gonna move forward to? Who’s gonna take charge of this particular work that needs to be done? And so, I think the film is really good at showing, well, this is how it’s done [trails off]. And that’s another perspective too that I think they need. It’s not just, you know, it just happens. 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: It’s like there’s a lot of work in the behind the scenes that make this– these movements– possible.

Another film I show is Mati Diop’s Atlantiques, which is again a film from 2018, more recent, that is also set between Senegal, and in a certain way, with Europe. It’s about a group of Senegalese youth who decide to take a very dangerous boat journey across the seas to try to get to Europe to get more employment opportunities.

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: And it has a very interesting twist, because it then enters into a type of ghost story. 

Jasmine: Mm-hmm. 

Shelleen: It also has elements of science fiction, which I think are fascinating.

Jasmine: Interesting.

Shelleen: I love the way in which she’s talking about a very current political concern, which is migration. But at the same time, she brings in elements of science fiction and fantasy into her storytelling.

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: So, there are always ways I think that we can challenge ourselves as instructors to teach this so-called European cinema quite differently that is very attentive to our students’ lives today.

Jasmine: Right. I’d love to be a student in this class.

[Laughs]

Shelleen: Some of our instructors who teach European Film History keep it very current. Like, they only teach, I think, within the last 40 years. Which I think is actually a really good way of approaching it. I usually think of it as sort of this more historical [course], just because that’s how I was taught. 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: That’s what I TA’d– is that we start from the 19th century. Lumière brothers, Pathé. And then we, you know, go around. But I always like to think about ways of complicating it. 

Jasmine: Sure. 

Shelleen: And one way of doing that is maybe focusing it [to be] more central. I think another way of designing it would be maybe to focus on a theme, right?

Jasmine: Yeah.

Shelleen: Of just migration, you know?

Jasmine: Oh, interesting…

Shelleen: And maybe, is there a way of designing it around films that deal with the question of the West/non-West relation? If that’s one way of putting it or describing it.

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: And that helps you think about a whole range of films that maybe perhaps you would not include if you’re thinking of it chronologically, right?

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: I think environmentalism is something that I would like to [use as an organizing theme], because, you know, immigration is an environmental issue as well.

Jasmine: Sure.

Shelleen: So, I would like to maybe in the future think about designing a course on environmentalism, thinking about ecology and national cinemas or what we now call global cinemas. I know that you’ve done a lot of work with the festivals. I think that’s another way of designing it.

Jasmine: Yeah.

Shelleen: Thinking about the history of the European festival, the festival circuit, and thinking about, how does that help define concepts of “European cinema?”

So, those are different ways in which I try to sort of complicate it. You know, you think about maybe thematics, thinking about approach. I think one way we’ve done it in the past is sort of thinking about this wide coverage, and I’m trying to move away from that–

Jasmine: Yeah.

Shelleen: –and think about that I don’t have to cover everything, and I don’t have to be [covering] everything from, you know, 1896 to now.

But, I do have to help them think about “what is Europe?”, and what do we mean when we say “European cinema,” and understand that that is quite vast and quite complicated at this point in time. So, you know, those are, I think, the questions that I bring to each design. And I’ve designed it and redesigned it, you know, differently.

I think you have to be responsive to that change, and I think the students do appreciate it. I remember when I showed Marjane Satrapi’s, her graphic novel that was adapted to the film Persepolis [2007], and it really is a film that I liked to introduce to the course, first of all, because it’s animated. I think we need to show more animation because I think it’s a very important form, and I think it’s important that students see that as part of this larger history of cinema. And it’s such an amazing form to convey story. There’s a lot that I think that the filmmakers can do with animation, and Persepolis, I think, is an amazing example.

…It’s semi-autobiographical of her journeys to Europe after growing up in Iran and then having to leave because of the revolution. And so, it is actually not even a sort of a one sort of direction. It’s going back and forth through many countries, but also through time.

And, you know, I think that students really appreciate it because they can relate, either through their parents’ stories of immigration, of having to leave [because of] civil war, environmental catastrophe, or just seeking different employment or educational opportunities. But, I think they also may see it in their own story, right?

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: Many of our students, international students who are leaving situations that are quite sort of critical, and having to move to another country, learn another language, adopt [a] different culture. So I think, you know, a film such as Persepolis, does that very well. And also, I think it’s a good opportunity to think about European cinema now. 

Jasmine: Yeah. 

Shelleen: Because, the writer and one of the producers, is French-Iranian. The actors who perform the roles are from France, but they’re also from Italy. So you can see the ways in which this production is very much speaking to a kind of transnational approach to filmmaking. Films are not made in one country anymore, right? 

Jasmine: Right. 

Shelleen: And you can see the crews that are brought together, the production, is drawing talent from different parts of the world. So what is European cinema? Is this a French film? Is it an Italian film? How do we begin to sort of describe films in this transnational context?

I think there is such a thing still as a French film, or in our mind we have it, but what that means in this particular moment is quite different. And then you begin to understand that the cinema had always been global.

[Laughs]

Jasmine: Right.

Shelleen: We had always had cast and crew who were coming from different parts of the world– being motivated by war, by employment opportunities– to work in different countries.

Jasmine: Yeah. 

Shellen: Right? So it actually changes the ways in which we teach that longer history.

Jasmine: Well, thank you so much for sharing this work. This is really an amazing class and it sounds like you’re approaching it in really innovative ways. So, thanks so much for chatting.

Shelleen: Thanks for the conversation, Jasmine. Really appreciate it.